Episode 25: Breaking the Myths and Stigma Around Postpartum Depression
Have you ever wondered why postpartum depression can feel so isolating, yet its effects ripple through the entire family?
In this episode, Stephanie speaks with another therapist like myself, Courtney Miller, about what postpartum depression really looks like, how it differs from the “baby blues,” and why recovery is a whole-family process.
Courtney shares her deep clinical insight and personal warmth as she breaks down common misconceptions—like the belief that postpartum depression always involves thoughts of harming the baby—when in reality, one of the most common symptoms is the desire to harm oneself. She explains the importance of recognizing early signs, including a loss of joy, difficulty bonding with the baby, and persistent emotional numbness, and offers tangible strategies for coping and recovery.
Stephanie and Courtney explore how postpartum depression can surface months after birth, sometimes coinciding with returning to work, and why giving yourself grace is essential when healing takes longer than expected. They discuss how depression can impact a parent’s identity, self-worth, and relationships, and why opening up—both in therapy and to trusted support systems—can be life-changing.
This conversation gets into the role of partners and family members, highlighting how couples counseling and family therapy can bridge communication gaps, reduce conflict, and strengthen relationships during this huge life transition. They address the impact of postpartum depression on fathers and partners, how societal stigma and media misconceptions create fear, and why professionals are uniquely equipped to discern between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis.
From practical tips like gradual bonding exercises with your baby, to Courtney’s creative “monster” metaphor for managing depression, this episode is filled with both compassion and actionable steps. Whether you’re in the postpartum stage, supporting someone who is, or simply want to better understand perinatal mental health, this episode offers clarity, validation, and hope.
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Welcome to Redefining Us, where we explore sexuality, identity, motherhood, and mental health to help women thrive authentically. Let's break free from roles that limit us and create a life where you can truly be yourself. Welcome back to Redefining Us. Today we have a guest with us, Courtney Miller, who is a therapist on the Well-Minded team. That's the practice that I own in Broomfield, Colorado. Courtney is a newer mom, and she works with children and elders to overcome difficulties that life may bring. She has experience working with groups, families, couples, and individuals, and has experience in working with eating disorders, bullying issues, depression, anxiety, domestic violence, divorce, substance abuse, and sexual abuse, among other concerns that people may be facing. And I'm really excited for you to listen to this conversation that we have about postpartum depression and all of the intricacies of postpartum mental health concerns because they are diverse. But today we're focusing primarily on postpartum and how it's different from other mental health issues that can develop in postpartum. I hope you have a great listen and welcome feedback. If anyone has any further questions about this topic, be happy to do other episodes that are in the same vein. So let's get into it today. Welcome back to Redefining Us. I'm your host, Stephanie Cantor O'Hara. I'm a licensed professional counselor, and I have with me today Courtney Miller, who's also a licensed professional counselor in Colorado. So welcome, Courtney.
Hey, I'm Courtney Miller. I'm a licensed therapist.
So we're here to talk about postpartum depression and potentially other postpartum mental health concerns. So let's just kind of dive right in. A lot of people have heard of baby blues and postpartum depression, and I was hoping you can share with the listeners what are the differences? How does someone know when they're experiencing one thing rather than the other? Of
course. So everyone knows, or at least a good portion of people know, that right after they have a baby, they go home. It's exhausting because you're Body has completely changed. You're getting hardly any sleep. So for the first couple of days, you might be crying because of exhaustion. But then after a couple of days, it slowly wears off. Postpartum depression is something that will continue on. And so if it continues on for more than a couple of days, that's the first sign. If you are not finding any enjoyment, if you're not feeling like you're connecting, With the baby, which usually it sounds harder than it actually is, you'll see that baby smile or wink at you. And if you're thinking, okay, why am I not actually enjoying this? How am I not experiencing this? That is also a sign. And if you feel like nobody else is getting this, that's understandable. But I just want to let everyone know that there are people out there that you can talk to. There are group, part groups. There's also therapies for this. One of the best is cognitive behavioral therapy where you are taught to challenge these thoughts and realize your strength and helping get over that, realizing what you need to do to believe in yourself again. Also, one of the benefits is to relax, slowly start gaining your strength back. And another big sign is that if you are feeling where you are wanting to hurt yourself, a lot of people feel that postpartum depression is where you are feeling that wanting to harm the baby, which, yes, it can. But a lot of people don't realize that one of the biggest symptoms of it is wanting to hurt you. So I wanted to really focus on that state that that is you can reach out to a therapist. You can also reach out to 988 and gasp with them about it. They will understand. They will walk you through it. They will help you find ways. One of the best is to relax, to find social support, which if you can think of it off the top of your head, as soon as you start being at home with that baby, that is one of the best. Is it like your significant other, friends? family anything and then maybe you can work something for them to come and take care of that baby throughout the day so that way you can slowly get some time for yourself slowly be able to start eating healthy again being able to walk outside and you will be able to feel if that is starting to go down you're feeling starting to go down and you're able to enjoy your life again If you're able to actually feel like you're connecting with that baby. If you're able to communicate with your significant other. And when you look in the mirror, remind yourself that you are not in the wrong. Tell yourself something positive about yourself every day. That you brought this baby in. And that you are trying to get through this. Tell yourself something that you love about yourself. Something positive. And at the end of the day, trying to think of one positive thing that you got through.
Young, I was going to say one of the biggest protective factors, which are kind of highlighting here, Courtney, for people to recover from postpartum depression is this feeling that you believe in yourself, this what's called self-efficacy. But basically, the protective factor is believing that you can recover and believing that you can do the job of being the baby's parent. Usually having that internal strength and believing in yourself is one of the best protective factors for postpartum depression and helps move people to recovery after experiencing it. Another thing that I wanted to touch on, you mentioned the 988 number. The great thing about that are those people are available 24-7. So even if you have a therapist, you probably can't call them at 2 a.m. during a A night waking. But if you needed to talk to someone right then and there, 988 is available 24-7. So just wanted to state that for people who maybe are not familiar with 988.
Yeah, that is one of the best things because those babies do cry and wake you up at all times. But at night,
yeah. And I feel like most people tend to have their darkest thoughts about... suicidal thoughts or thoughts about harming the baby late at night when they're alone. And so having a resource to tap into during those harder times is really important if you're struggling from postpartum depression.
Exactly. I did want to cover on when you're feeling like you're able to get back out there, start working, this may still follow you. It might be a lot easier but it might still follow you work may be very difficult but i want you to really focus on you and let you know that you are still getting through it that work doesn't really understand what you are doing maybe if you have to communicate with them see if you can come up with a plan with your therapist about going in there slower because when you're getting through this it's The hardest time is always when you find out that you have it and you find out what you're going through. Once you start working up, start climbing up, it starts getting a little easier. You start noticing the changes. You start noticing that you've got grasp on everything, that these people are behind you. And even the people at work will be behind you if you just let them know that you might need a little bit of help.
Yeah, I think asking for help is definitely really important, not just from a therapist, but also maybe your co-workers or your boss. And hopefully it'll be understanding, but I think giving them context of why you might be showing up to work not as your best self could be helpful in some cases. And if you don't feel like it's a safe place to bring it up, hopefully you have an HR department that can help you navigate the situation. I think another really important thing to recognize about postpartum depression is if it Unfortunately, the highest risk of maternal suicide is between 8 and 10 months because they believe, quote unquote, that they should feel better by now, even if they got diagnosed with postpartum depression earlier on. And so this idea of I'm still not better happens. tends to lead to people feeling more suicidal. So I think it's important to name that so people continue to go to therapy and do cognitive behavioral therapy and continue to reach out to their supports because it may take longer than you want to feel better when you're experiencing depression. Depression is one of those mental concerns that can linger. And so giving yourself grace is really important. because it may not just be like, oh, I've started seeing a therapist. I feel better now. You know, it's some work. So coming to therapy weekly would probably be really beneficial for a person in this position.
Stephanie, I like how you said that, how you were talking about how depression can take a long time. I highly suggest that people suffering from this focus more on the word depression, not necessarily on postpartum, because when people hear postpartum, It's like, okay, it's after you have a baby. A couple of months after, I should be fine. And they don't even see the word depression or know what that word means. But depression can last for years or it could just last for a couple months. Every person is different. It depends on how you work with them. If you ignore it, it could last longer. It could get worse if you act on it every day. I highly suggest that you take the work on the homework and skills that your therapist suggests. Or tell the therapist the truth and everything because therapists will not judge you. Those kind of things that will really help a lot and help you get control of it.
Yeah, I think what you just kind of highlighted is really important. The more open that you can be in therapy, the better. Unfortunately, there is a lot of stigma around mental health, not just specifically postpartum, but I think it's exacerbated sometimes in postpartum because a lot of women have this fear that if I share that I want to hurt myself or if I share that I'm really depressed and having a hard time functioning, that someone's going to want to take my baby away from me or I'm not a good mother. And saying those things out loud can be really triggering to people. are triggering to think about and also triggering to maybe say to people who are not professionals, but therapists who are trained in perinatal health will be able to identify the difference between, oh, this is a thought that I just am feeling, not a thought that I'm going to act on. and be able to differentiate that. And hopefully the likelihood of someone wanting to take your baby away is significantly reduced when you're speaking to a professional.
I like that you brought that up, Stephanie. One, because professionals know the difference. They know what is a sign that they need to take the baby away. And they know what the difference is that people are just thinking differently. But I also wanted to bring up how society views this, how society thinks of postpartum depression. Because most of the time these women are hurting themselves or wanting to hurt themselves, not that baby. They're wanting to help the baby and that's why they're harming themselves because they feel that they can't. But because of media, everybody views it differently.
Yeah. I was going to speak to that. Oftentimes people, when they think of postpartum depression, I think there's this confusion around postpartum psychosis and postpartum depression. Sometimes when people experience postpartum psychosis, which is more delusions and hearing of voices or believing that they're getting commands, that leads to harming a child. And that is an emergent situation that you definitely need to get help with, because if you're feeling those things and thinking those things, you should get help in order to prevent that from happening. But I think in mass media, there's confusion between postpartum depression and what depression looks like compared to postpartum psychosis.
Yes, exactly. And
being able to know the difference, again, is something a professional can help you decipher. And most people... They're experiencing postpartum depression. I believe it's such a small number. I actually think I have it here that outlines how many people experience postpartum psychosis. It's one out of a thousand women. So that's a pretty small number where I believe the percentage of women who experience postpartum depression is one out of five women. So the likelihood of psychosis is much smaller, right? If you would just look at the numbers. So I just wanted to say that I think media can confuse those two. Definitely. And
I'm glad you put that up because that confuses everybody. They automatically think that someone's got that if someone is showing that.
Yeah.
I think
there's a lot of alarmists. That happens because everyone, of course, wants the best for the child. And there can be heightened anxiety around those types of concerns because taking care of children, obviously, is everyone can understand the importance of that.
I guess my thought, and of course, this is open for everybody's opinion, everybody's choice. But once you get into getting to know your therapist, getting to know everything that's going on, Maybe you could be open with your significant other, your family about the stuff you learn. Or even bring your significant other into a session or two. So you guys can learn everything together. So that is completely up to you. Everybody, they have different opinions about that. But I think that way they would definitely be behind you and trusting you. It would be a lot easier at home.
Yeah, I think both people having access to the same information would most likely create more unity between a couple. And so, yeah, a psychoeducation session with you and your partner going to your therapist would help. alleviate maybe some of your partner's fears about your depression. I think that could be hugely helpful, as well as the therapist could help guide the partner on ways to support you while you're experiencing postpartum depression. Exactly. I wanted to say, like, when you alluded to this before we jumped on the call, that postpartum depression impacts the whole family. or even just perinatal mental health disorders impact the whole family. So the whole family, especially the adults involved, obviously it's different for an infant. The whole family should be involved as part of the solution, right? So going back to your suggestion of bringing the partner in, it could be really helpful to get marriage and family therapy during the postnatal time because oftentimes, As people know, Courtney referenced, you're usually sleep deprived in early days of postpartum. And when people are sleep deprived, they're usually more emotional and they usually have more intense experiences because they're not getting access to proper sleep, which usually helps them restore and relax. And so conflict often arises in couples during postpartum, whether the client has postpartum depression or not. or whether the woman or the birthing person has postpartum depression or not, it could be a really valuable tool to get couples counseling in the postnatal time in order to help navigate that huge transition. Most couples go from being a couple and just being couple, couple, couple, couple, and then suddenly they have a child and now they need to figure out this whole new way of relating to each other because now there's this whole other human being a part of the dynamic. It's not just the two of you anymore.
That is very true. And I think the person going through postpartum depression, it's also harder to connect, communicate at the time. So with family counseling, it helps them be able to communicate easier, have them feel like in a professional way, help the communication feel like they're being heard. And the same for the significant other. and they would even be able to try things to help everyone think, okay, maybe we can take care of the kid this time, you can do it this time, and even try to spend certain times every day together. Yeah,
I think that's a really good point, making an effort to connect with people each other because I think sometimes there's a lot of importance trusted upon connecting with a child and yeah that is very valuable and the two of you are still a couple so reconnecting in that way can go back to that support factor that Courtney mentioned. I also wanted to highlight just because I thought this is really interesting in my learning about perinatal mental health and this might be interesting to you Courtney if you didn't already know this is that Postpartum depression can also impact fathers. And 10 to 15% of fathers even experience postpartum depression because they're oftentimes feeling like, I don't know how to do this. I'm incompetent. I don't know how to be a dad. I'm just now in this new role. Where is my identity at? Who am I now in this relationship with my partner now that this child is here? So, yeah, I think... going back to the importance of family and couple therapy. It's not just the mom that's going through a change. It's also the father. So there's such a value, I think, in really being a team and working together. Obviously, the incidences of fathers having postpartum depression is less than birthing people slash mothers. But I just wanted to point that out because I thought that was really fascinating when I was learning about postpartum depression is that men can also experience it as well.
That's awesome, Stephanie, that you're Able to say that. And it might be less, but I wouldn't think, I mean, I don't know if this is right to say, but I don't know if it's any less difficult. I always say it's in a different way. I mean, because the women are carrying the baby, but the guys are having to go through, or I should say the significant other is having to go through the difficulties just as much as the mom is. Yeah. The change in themselves. Yeah.
Yeah, women are definitely experiencing more hormonal changes. Men are experiencing similar changes when it comes to roles and responsibilities and identity and who am I now? Am I good enough? All of those concerns that usually present themselves with depression.
Yeah. That's very interesting. When was that figured out? When
did they begin doing research on that? Yeah. So there's a... whole organization called UnityPoint Health that has done some research on this. And yeah, they have a website that goes to what are the risk factors? What are the common symptoms of how postpartum depression shows up differently in men compared to women? So women usually have peak symptoms around two to three months, while usually men have more postpartum depression closer to the year mark of the child and men tend to show more anger and risk-taking behaviors when they're experiencing postpartum depression compared to women tend to display more hopelessness feelings of loss of interest guilt and crying so it even shows that differently which I think is really interesting as far as the way that people experience depression differently
that is very true it's never the same for anybody This is definitely something we'll have to let everybody know. Yeah, hopefully people that are listening to this podcast will share with other people. Yeah,
and I think it's important for Farrahquist to know that mom's going through a lot and so is partner. And then, therefore, the relationship is going through a lot. Just kind of going back to the importance of couples counseling in postpartum.
Definitely. I did want to say something to back up a little bit from what I was saying that it's difficult sometimes for the mom to really connect with the baby when she's going through it. All that I want to say is that all you need to do is hold that baby. I know it's difficult for you, but the baby is feeling that and it's still getting attached to you. So as long as you're not going through postpartum psychosis and thinking of hurting the baby, then it's perfectly fine what you're doing. Even after you talk to a therapist and stuff, it may even help you once you find ways to handle it.
Yeah, I think it's important to remember there's something called mirror neurons. And if you're experiencing difficulties attaching to the child, the child's only desire is to attach with you as the parent. And so it's important to remember that sometimes there is this sense of, I don't want to hold the baby. I'm scared. I'm nervous. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm a failure. I don't know how to do this as a mother. And I would encourage you to remember that even though it's difficult, there is a strong correlation between avoiding a feeling or avoiding a problem and how long it lasts compared to trying to approach the problem and face your fears. When this avoidance comes up, whether it's in this depression or for another reason, we really find ourselves as humans struggling. What's a good word? Like reestablishing our fears over and over again. Oh, look, I'm not a good mother. That's why I'm not holding my baby. Therefore, I'm a failure. Where if you continue to avoid those beliefs and those thoughts will become stronger and stronger. Where if you potentially employ what's called opposite action of DBT, where you approach the situation, even when you want to avoid it. you could find yourself oh look I can actually hold the baby and I can actually help the baby and I can actually do these things that I was afraid that I wasn't going to be able to do so it's a little bit of reverse psychology almost on yourself like oh I'm terrified of doing this thing and therefore your brain's like avoid avoid but what is actually going to be helpful to overcome that is to approach the situation and do your best to not avoid something that is helpful. And again, those mirror neurons that exist between you and your baby will eventually help soothe and regulate both of your nervous systems to help form that attachment.
That's exactly what, yeah, that's perfect. I know a lot of people They have to do stuff slowly. So I'm trying to think if this would be a good time to maybe if they just have to like always want that baby in the crib, maybe do it a little more each day when that fear comes up instead of automatically putting the baby down. Just try and hold the baby for a couple minutes longer than the day before and congratulate yourself every time they notice that. Yeah. Don't blame themselves if they're not able to handle it that day because everybody's able to make mistakes.
Yeah, this is a great time to ask for support from your partner. Maybe your partner has more confidence in their ability to do a task, whether it's hold the baby or feed the baby or whatever the task might be. Maybe they do it and then they walk you through how to do it and then maybe they watch you do it. There can be a lot of ways to titrate or slowly introduce you to an experience that you're afraid of. It's all about getting support. Again, something a therapist could even walk you through. Maybe it's about the objective is you want to be close to your baby and be attached to your baby. And part of that is holding your baby. So maybe day one, Courtney said you hold your baby for five minutes more than you did the day before. And then maybe the next day you hold your baby for 10 minutes more. And so... Yeah, I guess going back to this idea that seeking therapy during this time is really helpful because there's so many things, unfortunately, that are so brand new that you might find yourself in this fetus mindset, which then prolongs the depression.
Yeah, definitely. And I think every time you make a step closer, it'll help it. I think if you... This help works for me with any... form of depression if you view it as like a monster I also do this with the kids that I work with view it as a monster every time you're feeling the depression kick on think okay is the monster bigger than me right now or am I bigger than the monster what color is that monster so when you feel it it's like one object and you have an easier way of thinking okay What do I need to do? How hard is it going to be for me to overcome this monster? What else do I need to do to be taller than this monster? Instead of feeling it all over your body and not knowing what it is, not knowing how to overcome it or what to do. And then every day as you do stuff, take a step back and think, okay, how big is this monster right now? How close am I to being taller than it? So think of things like that. And even if it's always there, one of these days you'll be able to be taller than it.
Yeah, I like that imagery of removing that I am depression or I am the monster to, oh no, this monster is separate from me and I can function knowing the monster exists, but it still has its place and it's going to change. And I'm going to change in the relationship rather than feeling like you've over-identified with the monster. I really like that, Courtney.
Exactly, because if you start feeling like you're no longer depressed, you may become wondering who you are and needing to have it back.
Yeah, I think you're kind of speaking to this idea that now you've created this relationship with your depression and think that it needs to be there because it's a part of you. Somehow in that process of believing that your depression needs to be a part of you, you over-identify it. with it and then you become depressed again, whereas you separate it from yourself. You can have a different experience with it.
Yeah,
I really like that idea of a monster. I was kind of picturing Scully from Monsters, Inc., like a big blue and purple monster. And if I envisioned it that way, too, it made it less scary. Because like, he's scared of Scully from Monsters, Inc. It's just like a cute, cuddly, furry monster.
Yeah, or the cookie monster from Sesame Street. Yeah, that's a good one too. Yeah, I'm going to have to ask the kids that I work with to think of it like that.
Yeah, it kind of makes it a little more lighthearted too. Maybe turn it on its head a little bit rather than a scary monster. As a newer mom, I've been watching a lot of Sesame Street and it's making me think about how even Elmo technically considers himself a monster. Like all of the characters to some extent. I think that look like Elmo or Cookie Monster are technically monsters. Who's afraid of Elmo? Elmo is everyone's best friend.
Yeah, you look so happy. Who would be scared of it?
Yes. But anyways, we're getting off the topic. So... Yeah. Is there any other things that you think the listener should know about postpartum depression or potential resources that they should tap into to help them with their postpartum depression?
I do want to say that definitely besides 988, definitely talk to their therapist about it and or talk to their OBGYN. about referrals or other things that could help them. Because I know, depending on how high it is, some might need medication. So they can definitely talk to somebody about it. Always be open with how you're feeling instead of just wondering. So definitely look into that.
Yeah, I think it's an important piece to mention is that sometimes depression is... so heavy that you might need medication support. And that's definitely something that a physician can help assess with you. Yeah. Last resource that I wanted to give only because I really like this organization is Postpartum Support International. We're based out of Oregon and they have a lot of free groups that women can join. So I definitely recommend going to psi.org, I believe. Great organization and that can support women in finding support. Or it's postpartum.net. Sorry, that's what their website is. Anyways, all of that information will be in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on today, Courtney. Courtney's information will also be in the show notes if you want to work with her as a therapist. She works at Well-Minded Counseling. So yeah, thank you so much for everyone tuning in. Thank you for tuning in to Redefining Us once again and share with other people so other people can continue to listen to Redefining Us and we can get into more listeners ears. If you follow us or subscribe or leave a comment or review, that'd be greatly helpful for other people to find us and also just for me to get some feedback. What do you guys want to hear me say? What do you women care about hearing? I'm totally open Thank you so much. So you can be in the know with all the things that are happening in the Redefining Us community. Once again, thank you so much for listening and keep being awesome.
What inspired me? I think it's kind of two parts. There's like the side of doing this work. where I didn't see a need for it, right? Like, I think that the sexuality is such an important part of being human, right? It's like a key part of who we are and how we interact with each other. It's directly tied to the way that we form romantic and sexual relationships, which impacts the part we choose or how and when we become parents. our physical and mental health, our safety, our sense of self, you know, all of these things are tied to sexuality. And I think for me, I've seen a lot in the different things that I've worked in, young people in particular, but also, you know, older selves as well, adults as well, are really hungering for information about this topic. They feel like they don't really know how to ask for more information or find information. There's a lot of people who are even embarrassed to talk to their doctors about sexual health issues. And so when I see that and include the harmful and accurate and dangerous information that is readily available, it makes you want to do this and want to do this work. And so that's definitely a big part of it. I would say the other part is more personal. I think that A lot of folks were really kept by gender-based violence, by anti-partner violence, and it's impacted my own journey in a lot of ways. I think a lot of times we see in these stories where, you know, a survivor is using an abusive relationship to help what they do. But I think the reality is that many, many survivors end up living with global abusive partners for most of their lives or kind of stuck in a cycle with these partners. And that way, Definitely rethinking my family, and I'm not kind of leading my own work well for about almost three years ago. So, a beautiful partner takes her life. From her father, to the Navy, up to school, to employers, kindergarten, and kindergarten teacher who's going to be a school principal. And our family is still really grappling with that. So, I definitely think we need to do this. Yeah, that'sa really powerful story. I appreciate you sharing that. I think I don't know what the stats are. You might know since you kind of are in this world, but I'd imagine, unfortunately, a lot of people when they get into relationships don't know that it might become one that has like domestic violence, a part of it. And then at least from what I know, kind of gets stuck almost and they don't know how to leave.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've seen that a lot. I worked for my last job. I was a gender-referenced domestic violence prevention specialists for the domestic violence agency in Virginia. And, you know, that's very much the case. And there's a lot of misconceptions around people like, you know, well, why don't they just leave? Or, you know, I've been in the personal side. Why did they end up at the Alamo? And it doesn't start out that way. And by the time you're in it, you find... and all this immense strain and this immense fear that keeps you in it. And what we do know from statistics is that it typically takes a survivor about seven times before they can successfully leave an abusive partner because of that pull, because of that control, because of that fear. And on top of that, leaving is the most dangerous time for a lot of survivors. So yeah, it is something that I think You know, in a lot of ways, the work that I do is directly tied to it, because it teaches people how to have healthy relationships, but it teaches people how to manage their feelings and emotions and interactions in a way that is truly loving and is based on mutual self and self and safety, you know, and probably be fit for life where we have less empathy like that.
Mm-hmm.
I know some of the work that you're doing based on our last conversation is writing a children's book about consent. And I'd love for you to share about that because I think a lot of our listeners would be really interested. I know I'm really interested to see that come out.
Yeah, same for remembering. Yeah, so I've written a children's book about consent. I've written two versions of it because I currently live in Michigan. I live in Uganda at the moment. So I've published a book here in Uganda. I'm a woman working on publishing a U.S. version currently with Illustrator right now, and I'm really excited about it. But basically, it's just a little story for ages four to seven, four to six. And it's about not just the idea of, you know, consent being no means no, but really also thinking about what does that look like in a little person's life? And what does it mean to say no? How difficult that can be when you don't want to hurt someone's feelings. Or what does it mean to hear no and deal with rejection? Because rejection is a really tough emotion to understand. It's hard for adults. It's hard for kids. And there's a lot of skills that we need to build up to be able to do that in a way where we can still respect one another. And so that's kind of what the story is about, a little boy who has to say no to his little brother who really wants something, and then he learns this lesson with his dad, and then later on the next day at school, someone says no to him, and he has to manage that with the feelings and the emotional guidance that his dad gave him the day before. So I'm very excited about that. The children's book space around consent and body autonomy on all of these really foundational topics related to sexual health and well-being and healthy relationships. It's really, really expanding, and it's super cool to see. It's kind of a passion area of mine in collecting children's books about consent and sex ed topics, and there's just so many amazing options out there, so it's a really... great time to be a parent who might be looking for that type of resource because there's a lot of options.
Yeah. Yeah. I imagine it's a topic that maybe like I'm thinking about my childhood and I don't think I ever had a book that taught me about consent. I just saw this post that was talking about sharing what I thought was really interesting. And it feels like it has a lot of parallels with consent rather than Teaching your kid to always say yes to sharing. You can also teach them it's okay to say no, that they don't have to share and what's theirs is theirs. You know, sometimes it's kind to share, but sometimes protecting your own space and your own peace by not sharing.
Yeah, exactly. And that's absolutely a topic that comes up in my book as well, is that I try to practice with my daughter who's four. It's kind of unfair for adults to expect kids to share everything when we don't share everything. You know, we don't share a lot of our possessions day in and day out. for a variety of reasons. And so helping her understand the value of sharing, right? The importance of building community and how that can be a good thing. But if there are things that you don't want to share, That's okay, too. But then what do we have to do about that? If we have friends coming over to play and you don't want to share something, it's probably better that we put it away, right? And instead of, you know, just holding it where they can see it and not letting them touch it. That's not a good way to build community and build friends and make friends. So trying to give kids the skills and the a channel for them to actually voice that and express that part of their autonomy is equally important. And that was actually something really interesting when I was, I had written this story in kind of an American context and then working with a Ugandan publisher here trying to adapt it and to be, you know, more culturally relevant and culturally responsive. And we were really struggling with the editor of like, you would never say no to sharing something here. It is just not a part of the culture. It's actually very counterculture. There's this concept of Ubuntu and this concept of everything's communal, everything is shared. And so it's like, We had to change the story to think about what would be a reason why you might not want to allow someone to do something. And it's like, oh, okay, he doesn't want his little brother to play with this because his little brother, it could hurt him. You know, the small pieces, he could choke on it or something like that. And so that made more sense. And so there's also this cultural piece that I think is really important, especially in a multicultural context. society like the U.S. and kind of my background and some of the different places I've lived and worked and think about, well, what does that look like here? Or what does it look like there? And how can we explore those topics?
Yeah, I imagine it's a really, the word complicated is coming to me, but like nuanced, right? Like even teaching consent and sharing and this idea of protecting the Yourself and your bodily autonomy is very nuanced conversation and trying to have a similar conversation with people from multiple backgrounds, I imagine, just grows more and more complicated the more people you have in the conversation.
Yeah, yeah. And even just, you know, within a family, right? Like, you know, there's a lot of discussion there. or kind of awareness building around giving kids bodily autonomy. And the example that's always used is like, you don't want a hard grandma, we don't ask you. That doesn't fly in a lot of families or between generations, right? And so thinking about, you know, what does that really mean for our family and how can we balance our familial and cultural values with this idea of the type of bodily autonomy and cohesiveness that we want to instill in our children as well because both of those things we usually you know want to pass on to our kids right family values or cultural norms and maybe there are things we want to do a little differently and so that nuance can be a bit scary for parents I think sometimes of like how do I do this or I had a friend write me once because she was like You know, I've always taught my daughter, no means no. And we're a body, it's your body and your choice. And I was trying to get her dressed for school and she was just screaming, no, it's my body, my choice, my body, my choice. And she was just like, oh no, how do I respond to that? And so, yeah, it can be very complicated with our own feelings and also, you know, with the role of a parent. And I think it's important to remember that Everything that we teach kids, we've taught on this scaffolding framework, right? We add layers to it as they get older. And consent and bodily autonomy and all of these other topics are the same way. But first, we might say, you know, you can always say no. And then we'll add that layer of life. And with kids, I do need to keep you safe. So I can acknowledge that you don't want to do this, but I do need to help you, right? So we're adding lower levels. understanding as their capacity to understand expands as well.
Yeah, I guess for parents who are maybe just approaching this topic for the first time, maybe with someone who's already a little bit older, maybe they already have an eight or nine year old, I'm assuming you would approach this conversation different than you would with a four year old. Do you have any tools or ideas for people who maybe are like, okay, I'm already past the age for the book that you've written that made a nine-year-old be like, mom, I don't want to read this.
Yeah, absolutely. I will say one, there are books for the next age bracket up.
It's
a really cool, yeah, like I said, it's really blown up in the last decade or so. And, you know, I'm a big fan of Mahari's work that is like a positive family book. And they have on their website a whole resource list that you can look by book, you can look by article, you can look by video, whatever. You know, amains.org has a lot of great resources for short videos that are designed for middle school age, talk a lot about puberty topics. You know, that's really something you can watch together. You could have your child watch it and then ask them questions after. And then the regular India and stuff that you consume There's always lessons, there's always opportunities to have conversation around. You know, if you're watching something and you're like, what does it look like? He really wants to do that and his friends are pressuring him. Like, what do you think about that, right? And look for those opportunities to have those conversations. It's really never too late. And it's also never too late to go back. I think there's this idea that for parents, sometimes we have this pressure of, I have to say the right thing. You know, my child asked this question and I answered it wrong and I don't know what to do now. And it's totally okay. Not only is it okay, but it's such a good example to be like, you know, you know, yesterday you asked me this question about where do babies come from? And I really don't know how to answer it. And I think I gave you the wrong answer. Can we talk about it again? Right? And showing them what that looks like to not know the answer to them. And that's okay, right? And how can we find it? And so, yeah, I do think the conversation can get even more interesting as your kid gets older and there's room to explore things together, especially given the stuff, the kind of range of content and media and information that kids are exposed to. You know, they are going to ask you questions that you don't know the answer to. And so, yeah, releasing that fear of you don't have the right answer and just letting yourself explore it with them is, I think, a good way to foster that relationship and that curiosity and help them see that they can trust you. And they will continue to bring things to you if they feel like they can trust you and you're not going to judge them and you're not going to lie to them.
Yeah, I guess what I'm kind of hearing you say is really for the parent redefining what the conversation looks like. So I think at least again, I'm going to use myself as an example and maybe throw my parents a little bit under the bus here. But I think my experience was there was all this buildup to have one conversation. Right. One conversation. And I think back and I'm like, Man, it might have been easier to have like little micro conversations along the way rather than having what felt like this really awkward, uncomfortable conversation in the fourth grade. Right. What about talking about it when I was five or six or seven and just building it up?
Wow. Yeah, exactly. That idea of scaffolding not only is better for our child's development, Yeah, that's time to become more comfortable with these topics and to kind of practice having these conversations. And, you know, at the beginning, it kind of starts with just teaching anatomically correct names for body parts, right? And how important that can be for health or safety, for all of these things. But then also, so when you want to talk about it later, they already have that vocabulary and you don't have to, you know, start some scratch of like, you know, well, we've all moved over this, but technically it's this. And then you're like, wait, what? Like, so yeah, it's such a, I mean, yeah, I hesitate to say better because I try to be, you know, but I do think it's a much more accessible way to approach these topics with your kids is to have these micro conversations that come up all the time. Find, you know, children's books that have these topics. So, you know, it's one book that you read out of however many books you have right in your family library. And I'm kind of building on that a little bit, you know, every day as they get older and as these things come up.
Yeah, it helps to normalize the conversation. So then when maybe your child has a question, they will be like, oh, I can ask mom and dad about this thing. I don't have to go ask the kid on the playground this question and get potentially inaccurate information. I can talk to my parents.
Yeah, more realistically, Google, right? A lot of young people, even, you know, middle grade. kids are using Google to answer these questions. They're now even like Captain T, right? All the AI stuff. That could be an important part of the conversation, too, is if you want to find information, how do we make sure we're finding real information, credible information? You can show them how to search something on Google and have that conversation with them as well. And so I just think, yeah, it's a much more accessible and approachable way for parents, too, to think that and then you start out, like I said, with kind of base level of like, you know, where do babies come from? Well, there's a sperm and an egg and they join together and it grows in uterus and then there's a baby. And that's pretty good. Most kids don't have a lot of detailed questions after that because you've given them something solid, right? And then when they do, then you can add a layer to it rather than add more information to it.
Mm-hmm.
What do you think is the most surprising thing that maybe people ask you a question about over and over that you're like, hmm, I'm surprised this isn't widely known knowledge?
That's interesting. That's an interesting question. I think it's kind of different for kids than for adults and parents that I work with and stuff. Because I think one question that comes up a lot with parents is, how can I talk about this stuff? Won't I just be teaching them how to go have sex? And, you know, isn't this just going to make them more curious about things? And thankfully, there is a ton of research that I can turn to, that I can point parents to that show that that is not the case at all. That, you know... Introducing kids to comprehensive sex ed topics, both in a formal education setting, but also in a family setting, are strong correlations. And I think the argument could be made for some causation as well, are strong correlations to delayed sexual activity, to young people, you know, having much higher levels of confidence of self-esteem of you know, better relational or emotional intelligence, all of these things. And so that's not what we see. And if you just think about it, you're not usually like, you know, wow, my mom just talked about sex. Now I'm going to go look up pornography. Like, you know, your brain doesn't really work that way, especially for young kids. They're just like, huh, that's interesting. And then they move on, usually, right? They move on to... Minecraft or whatever the next thing we're going to do is. Yeah. So, yeah. So that's definitely a question that I get a lot. It really spans. It is just a wide array. And I usually save all my anonymous questions from some of the classrooms that I do because they're always so interesting. But I think for a lot of the older age group that I have, There seem to be more questions around either one, things that are seen in pornography and wanting to understand it and wondering, is it real? Is this what people expect? That type of stuff. And then on the other hand, I get a lot of questions around like, how do I tell my boyfriend or my girlfriend that I'm not ready to kiss them or to have sex or something like that, right? That feeling of feeling this social pressure to... Do things to have sexual experiences that you're not ready for or wanting, but just not knowing how to have that conversation at all. And so that question comes up a lot too. I
am curious how you would answer that for a young person. As a therapist, I've found that I have some clients that come in and they're like, oh, like, you know, my girlfriend said that she'll break up with me if I don't do this. Or my boyfriend doesn't want to be with me unless I do this. It's like, then I talk to, I tend to talk to them like, is that a relationship that you want to be in? If they are saying you do this or this other thing will happen, that feels like a really big consequence for saying no. Do you want to be in a relationship? that has that kind of consequence for saying no to something that you don't want to do. And that's the way that I approach it, but I'm not sure if you would give different perspective from the
education. Yeah. Yeah. From the education piece, I think that's kind of a foundational part of it. It was like, I kind of frame it in that, right? Like first and foremost, you know, if you feel like saying no to somebody is, is going to make them break up with you or treat you poorly or something like that. You should be asking yourself, you know, is that about the person you really want to be with? Because that is coercion. That is abusive or at a minimum unhealthy. And so kind of, you know, setting the scene with that. And then the education piece comes in, which I think is really important because sometimes grownups can get more conceptual. And young people want concrete, like what exactly do I say, right? And so I think a lot of people do. I think a lot of people do. So then we're going to turn to like, okay, so thinking about how do you bring it up first, right? Text message comes up because a lot of kids have these conversations on text message or instant messaging aspects of different apps, right? And so, you know, you can ask, oh, it seemed like you wanted to be more the last time we were together. Like, I am interested. I just don't know if I'm ready for that right now. And leave it at that. You don't have to go too much into it and see what your partner says. And then we can go from there. Sometimes when you say that, might be pleasantly surprised that they're like, oh my gosh, I understand. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable. I like you, right? Or they might be like, well, you know, if that's how it's going to be, then I might end this relationship or whatever and then see earlier conversations. But yeah, and so I am big on helping young people, especially adolescents, think about what does that communication look like in their life? Because I can tell them like, oh, follow the having conversations in person and blah, blah, blah. But that's just not the reality. They're not going to usually. Younger generations don't have a lot of practice having prep conversations in person because they have all the other options. So, you know, moving them where they're at with that and thinking about what can you say? Keep it simple. I'm usually asking the other students for ideas when I have a lot of great ideas too.
Yeah. I guess my hope is too, especially if this is like in a class setting that now all of these kids are in the same place willing to, I don't know, support each other. Because I think sometimes it can feel really isolating having these thoughts or these feelings and knowing like, oh, other people aren't ready for this too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not the only one that feels like I, you know, don't want to just immediately kiss, you know, my boyfriend. Right. That we've known for like a couple days, right?
Yeah, absolutely. And to kind of let folks know if you're on the other side of that, that other people might not be there yet. And that's okay. And not everyone is where you're at. And that's okay, too. And so I think that's a big part of why specs educational and formal educational studying schools is so important to do in groups. Because everyone's getting that same information and able to see that versus it is great to have, you know, these family discussions as well. And that's really important. But when we talk about prevention and when we talk about primary prevention of sexual violence and things like that, it's so important to build that community knowledge, right? And let folks know that everyone's getting the information at the same time, even if they're thinking about it differently or hearing it differently from other places.
Yeah. And yeah, I really like this idea of normalizing. It's so interesting. Again, I'm going to use my own personal experience here, but in my formal education about sex was learning about menstruation and then later on learning about STDs and, you know, what could happen if you became pregnant and And just, I don't know, it was just like also fear-based. And I would love if the, in general, the conversation became more than just sex and STDs or penetration and STDs. It's more than, you know, pregnancy and this huge conversation about relationships and safety and how to take care of yourself and like physically, emotionally, spiritually through this conversation. experience of our sexual wellness.
Yeah. Think about all the things like, you know, our sexual wellness and health are tied to, you mentioned spiritually even, right? How many people have values around sex and relationships that are directly tied to their spirituality or their religion? You know, it's such an integral part of our lives and our human existence. And I think that's where sex ed is, and a lot of folks in this space understand that, but not everybody does, it is more than anatomy and condoms on bananas and scaring people with pictures of STIs. It's about giving people, especially young people, which are my main focus area, the tool and the information they need to understand their bodies and build respectful relationships and navigate their world and their the interaction and their relationships with with agency and dignity and care for themselves and for others and it's not a one-size-fits-all lesson plan out there there's a ton of different curricula there's a ton of different resources and it really is an ongoing conversation and it does need to be rooted in kind of real lived experiences because we all have different experiences. And I think a lot about how culture and identity and power and oppression shape what we learn about sex and consent and connection. And so, yeah, I just think it's very important to think about how we want that information shared among society, but especially amongst our younger generation.
I guess, why do you think now more than ever, it's important for people to be taking sex education seriously or sex education as like a fundamental part of things that children and adolescents need to be learning to take themselves into adulthood? It's a big question.
Yeah, it's a big question. It is just, yeah, I mean... for all the reasons I said, right, is the important part of humanity. But now more than ever, I think because we're just in this time of like you talked about complexity, but even more than like complexity, I think like contradiction, right? Like we're in this time of deep contradiction where on the one hand, We're seeing a lot more open conversation about these topics, about sex and sexuality and gender, than a lot of us have even in our lifetime, much less our parents. But then at the same time, we're witnessing this political backlash, right, between book bans, where a lot of the books that I was just talking about earlier, attacks on comprehensive sex ed, their intentional, organized attacks, YouTube videos that tell parents, how do you tell your school that you don't want any sex ed in your school? And not to mention policy-wise, stripping LGBTQ rights and bodily autonomy and all of this stuff. And so we have this dichotomy, this contradiction around us where this topic is very present, we can find it, there's a lot of different options out there, but then we're also seeing political leaders actively working against this information, instituting policy that realizes sex educators, that discredits research-based, evidence-based, comprehensive sex ed. And meanwhile, many of these leaders have credible sexual assault allegations against them. And, you know, Our young people are seeing this. They're caught in the middle of these tensions and contradictions. And so I think that, you know, it's also like in the nightgowns, right? And they say, like, we are seeing these nuanced conversations about masculinity with the new Netflix show, Adolescence. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's popular talking about, you know, how this rigid idea of masculinity where men should dominate at the expense of women, right, is something that is very prevalent and very easily accessible. And so, you know, we have all of these things happening simultaneously. And like I said, young people are caught in the middle. They're hungry for information and... clarity, right, and more understanding. Yeah. And so I do think that makes it really important to bring up in our families, to advocate for in our schools, in our communities as a mom, but also as a gender-based violence specialist. I know the stakes are really high. Yeah. And they're very real. And so our kids are growing up in a world that's really connected, but also confusing. And so if we don't give them the tools to navigate this, they're going to be stuck with Google or misinformation that they find in other places that's intentionally harmful in a lot of ways sometimes. So yeah, I think that's an important message. It's important for us at every level of society right now.
Yeah. I keep trying to remind myself, even if we're all like just I don't want to say one person, like if there's a lot of people who are just one person moving in the direction to change things and educate people and tell people based on this research or based on these experiences, these things are factual. Yeah. Hopefully we can make enough noise to disrupt the misinformation that is out there.
Yeah, I mean, it's very scary to see. I mean, even before the current administration, U.S., like, federally would have financial incentives for states that did abstinence-only education, even though we have mountains of research that shows that that is not effective. And so, yeah, it's definitely... It takes a lot of us to create change, but also... we can do that in just our own sphere, right? Like you're saying, it's just one person. And I think that can hopefully be a little bit more accessible to think about what does this look like in my family, in my community? You know, something I hear a lot as well in this field is, you know, parents who, you know, talking about throwing my own parents under the bus. Not intentionally, they did the best they can, right? I love them. But, you know, there was this idea of the best way to keep kids safe in terms of anything related to sexuality or sexual violence is just to control them, right? Completely. And, you know, the more restrictions you put around this, you put around them and what they're able to do, the safer they'll be. And I think that that is kind of, well, the one thing that's kind of counter to my philosophy as a sex educator, which is really justice and liberation and equality, is that we can see what this looks like in our community or practice what this might look like in our community. To really promote body autonomy, I think of The idea of like sleepovers. Sleepovers comes up a lot, right? And so many people are like, you know, I've heard all of these terrible stories about people who are sexually abused, whether by other children or by adults that are there. And so my child will never, never go to a sleepover. And, you know, when we have these hardline approaches to things without thinking about How can we still promote bodily autonomy? How can we still promote, you know, dignity and choice and consent and balance the safety of our kids, right? And maybe for our community, that looks like, oh, well, there's always two chaperones from different families at a sleepover. Or, you know, we only do family sleepovers where we have two other families come and each family has their own tent or whatever the thing is, right? finding ways that you don't have to just use control but we can use communication and we can use problem solving and we can try to do fun things and show our kids that that's possible but we want to also highlight how important these conversations are and that type of stuff so yeah I think that's an important element of like how can we bring this message, these concepts into our own minds in different ways.
And
maybe that hopefully will take off some of the pressure of, we don't have to change the world. Not everyone can do that. It's a big, it's a big, yeah.
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I definitely think it starts at home and in your community and just, yeah, I hope everyone continues to have these conversations that are informed and based on research and All the good things we talked about here, but I want to respect your time. So please share with everyone where they can find you if they want to connect with you or learn more about what you have going on.
Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thanks so much for having me and having this conversation. My website is rootsandboundaries.com. So my independent consulting website. firm is Roots and Boundaries because I think we all need Roots and Boundaries to firm and rub ourselves and others. And so rootsandboundaries.com, Roots and Boundaries on Instagram, rootsandboundaries at gmail.com as well if you know what's being cheap. So there are a few places you can
find me. Well, thank you so much for sharing and thank you so much for being on today. And yeah, I hope people reach out to you. You have a lot of good things going on and I really appreciate the work you're doing in the world.
Thank you. You as well. Thank you so much.
Okay. Thanks, everyone. Thank you for tuning in to Redefining Us once again and share with other people so other people can continue to listen to Redefining Us and we can get into more listeners ears. If you follow us or subscribe or leave a comment or review, that'd be greatly helpful for other people to find us and also just for me to get some feedback. What do you guys want to hear me say? What do you women care about hearing? I'm totally open to to bringing on guests and talking about topics that are unique and inspiring to everyone. So please let me know. And this year, hopefully we'll be full of a lot of community building, a lot of public speaking, a lot of resource sharing. So I really encourage you to follow us on social media at well-minded counseling on Instagram as our handle, as well as going directly to our website, wellmindcounseling.com backslash redefining hyphen us to So you can be in the know with all the things that are happening in the Redefining Us community. Once again, thank you so much for listening and keep being awesome.